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	<title>Comments on: Living with Piracy (Edited)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy</link>
	<description>Writing, Publishing and The Internet</description>
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		<title>By: Gavin</title>
		<link>http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy/comment-page-1#comment-3410</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 03:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.novelr.com/?p=610#comment-3410</guid>
		<description>Crap - I meant to italicize only what I was quoting from John/Raven&#039;s post -- and I forgot to close the html coding.  Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crap &#8211; I meant to italicize only what I was quoting from John/Raven&#8217;s post &#8212; and I forgot to close the html coding.  Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin</title>
		<link>http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy/comment-page-1#comment-3409</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 03:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.novelr.com/?p=610#comment-3409</guid>
		<description>Thanks!  I really like the way you put this:

&lt;i&gt;The creator can offer the work at no cost per his discretion. But only he has that privilege. If anyone else wishes to distribute the work, then they must have explicit permission from the creator.

I think it&#039;s a wise law.  I could argue with a judge that, since the product was free, there&#039;s no financial damage if someone else distributes it for free also.  But a law protecting the *freedom* of a creator to be creative and share it, according to their discretion -- that&#039;s inventive.  

It&#039;s like codifying respect for a person&#039;s ideas.  In a practical sense, it&#039;s almost impossible to enforce (as Eli points out, piracy is rampant thanks to the internet).  But trying to teach people respect, at a societal and legal level, that&#039;s still kind of a noble battle, even if piracy is running rampant today.  People might learn to ask first, instead.  Use their manners, you know? ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks!  I really like the way you put this:</p>
<p><i>The creator can offer the work at no cost per his discretion. But only he has that privilege. If anyone else wishes to distribute the work, then they must have explicit permission from the creator.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s a wise law.  I could argue with a judge that, since the product was free, there&#8217;s no financial damage if someone else distributes it for free also.  But a law protecting the *freedom* of a creator to be creative and share it, according to their discretion &#8212; that&#8217;s inventive.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s like codifying respect for a person&#8217;s ideas.  In a practical sense, it&#8217;s almost impossible to enforce (as Eli points out, piracy is rampant thanks to the internet).  But trying to teach people respect, at a societal and legal level, that&#8217;s still kind of a noble battle, even if piracy is running rampant today.  People might learn to ask first, instead.  Use their manners, you know? ;)</i></p>
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		<title>By: RavenProject</title>
		<link>http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy/comment-page-1#comment-3408</link>
		<dc:creator>RavenProject</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 01:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.novelr.com/?p=610#comment-3408</guid>
		<description>@Gavin: &quot;But, (and this is just for the sake of argument) does an artist have any right to complain about “copyright violations” on something he gave away for free?&quot;

=Absolutely.= Copyright isn&#039;t about money. It&#039;s about the creator&#039;s right to control how his creation is used.

The creator can offer the work at no cost per his discretion. But only he has that privilege. If anyone else wishes to distribute the work, then they must have explicit permission from the creator.

&quot;Where’s the damage? How is it calculated?&quot;

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html

Even if the pirate isn&#039;t making a profit and wasn&#039;t acting maliciously, he can still be liable for a *minimum* of $750 plus attorney costs.

-J</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Gavin: &#8220;But, (and this is just for the sake of argument) does an artist have any right to complain about “copyright violations” on something he gave away for free?&#8221;</p>
<p>=Absolutely.= Copyright isn&#8217;t about money. It&#8217;s about the creator&#8217;s right to control how his creation is used.</p>
<p>The creator can offer the work at no cost per his discretion. But only he has that privilege. If anyone else wishes to distribute the work, then they must have explicit permission from the creator.</p>
<p>&#8220;Where’s the damage? How is it calculated?&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html</a></p>
<p>Even if the pirate isn&#8217;t making a profit and wasn&#8217;t acting maliciously, he can still be liable for a *minimum* of $750 plus attorney costs.</p>
<p>-J</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin</title>
		<link>http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy/comment-page-1#comment-3404</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 19:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.novelr.com/?p=610#comment-3404</guid>
		<description>But, (and this is just for the sake of argument) does an artist have any right to complain about &quot;copyright violations&quot; on something he gave away for free?

Where&#039;s the damage? How is it calculated?  What was stolen? I think it would be a very tricky thing to try to bring to court, and so again, is this piracy?  Especially when most cases could well be that kid, the &quot;biggest fan ever&quot; who just wanted to share his favourite song/story/etc.  It&#039;s exposure, which is the mentality of the internet culture right now -- share everything.  &quot;Information is free&quot; or whatever current slogans people are using.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But, (and this is just for the sake of argument) does an artist have any right to complain about &#8220;copyright violations&#8221; on something he gave away for free?</p>
<p>Where&#8217;s the damage? How is it calculated?  What was stolen? I think it would be a very tricky thing to try to bring to court, and so again, is this piracy?  Especially when most cases could well be that kid, the &#8220;biggest fan ever&#8221; who just wanted to share his favourite song/story/etc.  It&#8217;s exposure, which is the mentality of the internet culture right now &#8212; share everything.  &#8220;Information is free&#8221; or whatever current slogans people are using.</p>
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		<title>By: RavenProject</title>
		<link>http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy/comment-page-1#comment-3377</link>
		<dc:creator>RavenProject</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 00:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.novelr.com/?p=610#comment-3377</guid>
		<description>Nope, not an economist, just fascinated by online business.

I&#039;d say you didn&#039;t need to be reminded so much as shown another perspective, since you&#039;ve always been a huge proponent of &quot;human attention&quot; as a benefit to &quot;free&quot; distribution.

Your anecdotal account is probably correct and I&#039;d wager not even uncommon. Savvy purveyors of content on the web are well-served to find ways to make it as easy as possible for their fans to promote on their behalf, whether it&#039;s as simple as supplying cool web banners or as elaborate as an affiliate program.

I had another element occur to me later: Copyright.

One aspect of copyright law, at least in America, holds that the copyright owner must enforce his rights or risk losing them. That&#039;s how you get otherwise ridiculous stories like Disney suing a day-care center; they can&#039;t just let it go because it presents a risk to their copyrights and trademarks.

So going back to Hypothetical Band (and if anyone actually names their band that, the name&#039;s all yours)... judges may understand that pirates will take their music and deliver it without their approval. However, if it can be proven that that band was aware of that distribution and opted not to act, then it could be ruled that they have failed to police their rights and therefore forfeit them. Even the most liberal Creative Commons license places some demands on those who redistribute content.

Again, savvy purveyors of content keep this in mind. For example, some companies provide &quot;fansite kits&quot; of pre-approved content which can be used... and a mandatory copyright notice to post alongside it.

- John</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nope, not an economist, just fascinated by online business.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d say you didn&#8217;t need to be reminded so much as shown another perspective, since you&#8217;ve always been a huge proponent of &#8220;human attention&#8221; as a benefit to &#8220;free&#8221; distribution.</p>
<p>Your anecdotal account is probably correct and I&#8217;d wager not even uncommon. Savvy purveyors of content on the web are well-served to find ways to make it as easy as possible for their fans to promote on their behalf, whether it&#8217;s as simple as supplying cool web banners or as elaborate as an affiliate program.</p>
<p>I had another element occur to me later: Copyright.</p>
<p>One aspect of copyright law, at least in America, holds that the copyright owner must enforce his rights or risk losing them. That&#8217;s how you get otherwise ridiculous stories like Disney suing a day-care center; they can&#8217;t just let it go because it presents a risk to their copyrights and trademarks.</p>
<p>So going back to Hypothetical Band (and if anyone actually names their band that, the name&#8217;s all yours)&#8230; judges may understand that pirates will take their music and deliver it without their approval. However, if it can be proven that that band was aware of that distribution and opted not to act, then it could be ruled that they have failed to police their rights and therefore forfeit them. Even the most liberal Creative Commons license places some demands on those who redistribute content.</p>
<p>Again, savvy purveyors of content keep this in mind. For example, some companies provide &#8220;fansite kits&#8221; of pre-approved content which can be used&#8230; and a mandatory copyright notice to post alongside it.</p>
<p>- John</p>
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		<title>By: Eli James</title>
		<link>http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy/comment-page-1#comment-3376</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 23:53:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.novelr.com/?p=610#comment-3376</guid>
		<description>@Raven: I can&#039;t help but wonder if you&#039;re an economist (are you?). ;-) Good call. You&#039;ve reminded me of something - economists don&#039;t generally see a price of an item as just the currency cost associated with it ... they evaluate according to other cost factors - social or otherwise - associated with the purchase and factor that in to the final &#039;price&#039;. 

Metrics may be one of those cost-factors indeed. Another cost-factor might be the social/psychological sense of ownership ... things just doesn&#039;t feel right when you&#039;ve taken my work and put it on a filesharing site.

(I&#039;ve read an anecdotal account of one such incident, however, and when the author contacted the kid doing it, he found one of his biggest fans. &lt;em&gt;The kid was filesharing because he so loved the books!&lt;/em&gt; Talk about worst case scenario ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Raven: I can&#8217;t help but wonder if you&#8217;re an economist (are you?). ;-) Good call. You&#8217;ve reminded me of something &#8211; economists don&#8217;t generally see a price of an item as just the currency cost associated with it &#8230; they evaluate according to other cost factors &#8211; social or otherwise &#8211; associated with the purchase and factor that in to the final &#8216;price&#8217;. </p>
<p>Metrics may be one of those cost-factors indeed. Another cost-factor might be the social/psychological sense of ownership &#8230; things just doesn&#8217;t feel right when you&#8217;ve taken my work and put it on a filesharing site.</p>
<p>(I&#8217;ve read an anecdotal account of one such incident, however, and when the author contacted the kid doing it, he found one of his biggest fans. <em>The kid was filesharing because he so loved the books!</em> Talk about worst case scenario &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: RavenProject</title>
		<link>http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy/comment-page-1#comment-3374</link>
		<dc:creator>RavenProject</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 22:46:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.novelr.com/?p=610#comment-3374</guid>
		<description>&quot;Anybody else want to add an opinion?&quot;

I&#039;ll take a swing: Metrics.

Going with the album download example... a band can determine with reasonable accuracy how many people grabbed the album off their website. Far as I know -- and please, someone correct me if I&#039;m wrong -- there&#039;s no way to account for how many people grabbed the album off Joe Fan&#039;s torrent.

The number of downloads can be used to provide a moderate estimate of the band&#039;s fan base. This number is then used for everything from selecting a venue for live shows to setting print runs for t-shirts to demonstrating popularity when Big Business comes calling.

Of course, this assumes the our hypothetical band has just been putting the link out there on its own. The band may ask for people to register before downloading the album, providing them additional demographic information and an avenue for future communication.

This ties into the discussion on &quot;free&quot; we had over in the pay-per-chapter thread. Just because there isn&#039;t an exchange of currency, we can&#039;t assume that the band isn&#039;t receiving something of value. Even if it&#039;s done with the best of intentions, our overzealous fan who distributes the content through his own channels instead of the band&#039;s channels may end up depriving the band of some value.

If our hypothetical fan really wants to help this hypothetical band, then everyone is better off if he directs people to the band&#039;s chosen method of downloading instead of going off on his own.

-J</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Anybody else want to add an opinion?&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll take a swing: Metrics.</p>
<p>Going with the album download example&#8230; a band can determine with reasonable accuracy how many people grabbed the album off their website. Far as I know &#8212; and please, someone correct me if I&#8217;m wrong &#8212; there&#8217;s no way to account for how many people grabbed the album off Joe Fan&#8217;s torrent.</p>
<p>The number of downloads can be used to provide a moderate estimate of the band&#8217;s fan base. This number is then used for everything from selecting a venue for live shows to setting print runs for t-shirts to demonstrating popularity when Big Business comes calling.</p>
<p>Of course, this assumes the our hypothetical band has just been putting the link out there on its own. The band may ask for people to register before downloading the album, providing them additional demographic information and an avenue for future communication.</p>
<p>This ties into the discussion on &#8220;free&#8221; we had over in the pay-per-chapter thread. Just because there isn&#8217;t an exchange of currency, we can&#8217;t assume that the band isn&#8217;t receiving something of value. Even if it&#8217;s done with the best of intentions, our overzealous fan who distributes the content through his own channels instead of the band&#8217;s channels may end up depriving the band of some value.</p>
<p>If our hypothetical fan really wants to help this hypothetical band, then everyone is better off if he directs people to the band&#8217;s chosen method of downloading instead of going off on his own.</p>
<p>-J</p>
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		<title>By: Eli James</title>
		<link>http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy/comment-page-1#comment-3369</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 17:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.novelr.com/?p=610#comment-3369</guid>
		<description>Hrmm. Tricky thing. This devolves the discussion into a matter of taxonomy, though it is prudent to ask here if it really is &#039;piracy&#039;, or not. The articles discussing Radiohead call it &lt;em&gt;filesharing&lt;/em&gt; ... and in Coulton&#039;s case, his albums are really, &lt;em&gt;really&lt;/em&gt; cheap! But generally speaking, taking a file (whether it&#039;s free or not) and putting it up on a filesharing site is generally frowned upon. Not sure why, though.

I&#039;m afraid I can&#039;t give a definitive answer for this, Gav. Anybody else want to add an opinion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hrmm. Tricky thing. This devolves the discussion into a matter of taxonomy, though it is prudent to ask here if it really is &#8216;piracy&#8217;, or not. The articles discussing Radiohead call it <em>filesharing</em> &#8230; and in Coulton&#8217;s case, his albums are really, <em>really</em> cheap! But generally speaking, taking a file (whether it&#8217;s free or not) and putting it up on a filesharing site is generally frowned upon. Not sure why, though.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid I can&#8217;t give a definitive answer for this, Gav. Anybody else want to add an opinion?</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin</title>
		<link>http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy/comment-page-1#comment-3367</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 12:12:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.novelr.com/?p=610#comment-3367</guid>
		<description>But if something is &quot;free&quot; like the Radiohead album or an ebook, is it appropriate to call it &quot;piracy&quot; at all?  I mean, they can&#039;t steal something that&#039;s free -- they&#039;re sharing something they think is worth sharing.  Aren&#039;t they?  In other situations it&#039;s a misappropriation -- giving away something that should cost money.

But giving away something that was already free kind of just means they&#039;re giving it more exposure, aren&#039;t they?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But if something is &#8220;free&#8221; like the Radiohead album or an ebook, is it appropriate to call it &#8220;piracy&#8221; at all?  I mean, they can&#8217;t steal something that&#8217;s free &#8212; they&#8217;re sharing something they think is worth sharing.  Aren&#8217;t they?  In other situations it&#8217;s a misappropriation &#8212; giving away something that should cost money.</p>
<p>But giving away something that was already free kind of just means they&#8217;re giving it more exposure, aren&#8217;t they?</p>
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		<title>By: Eli James</title>
		<link>http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy/comment-page-1#comment-3333</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 01:12:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.novelr.com/?p=610#comment-3333</guid>
		<description>When Radiohead released their last album, &lt;em&gt;In Rainbows&lt;/em&gt;, for free in 2007, nobody expected people to download pirated versions from torrent sites. And yet &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wired.com/listening_post/2008/07/new-in-rainbows/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;they did&lt;/a&gt;. Johnathan Coulton offers some of his songs for free, and all his music/albums are available for very reasonable prices. And yet torrents for his entire discography exists.

A study in piracy is often a study in incentives. And it&#039;s not clear what the incentives are when you look at these two scenarios. Could it be habit? Could it be a misguided sense of Internet egalitarianism? Some pirates share copies because they love the material so much that they &lt;em&gt;must&lt;/em&gt; spread the word to their friends ... which means torrent sites. What we can learn from this, however, is that in mediums where piracy is the norm rather than the exception, torrent downloads will exist regardless of the availability of the original work.

Which simply means that if you&#039;re big, you very well should expect and prepare for some piracy in the future. Not now, maybe, because ebook piracy is just beginning to pick up. But soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When Radiohead released their last album, <em>In Rainbows</em>, for free in 2007, nobody expected people to download pirated versions from torrent sites. And yet <a href="http://www.wired.com/listening_post/2008/07/new-in-rainbows/" rel="nofollow">they did</a>. Johnathan Coulton offers some of his songs for free, and all his music/albums are available for very reasonable prices. And yet torrents for his entire discography exists.</p>
<p>A study in piracy is often a study in incentives. And it&#8217;s not clear what the incentives are when you look at these two scenarios. Could it be habit? Could it be a misguided sense of Internet egalitarianism? Some pirates share copies because they love the material so much that they <em>must</em> spread the word to their friends &#8230; which means torrent sites. What we can learn from this, however, is that in mediums where piracy is the norm rather than the exception, torrent downloads will exist regardless of the availability of the original work.</p>
<p>Which simply means that if you&#8217;re big, you very well should expect and prepare for some piracy in the future. Not now, maybe, because ebook piracy is just beginning to pick up. But soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin</title>
		<link>http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy/comment-page-1#comment-3329</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 17:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.novelr.com/?p=610#comment-3329</guid>
		<description>Okay, so piracy is reality.  Some bands are dealing with it creatively -- offering songs for free, and asking fans to donate what they think it&#039;s worth.  I respect that, because it&#039;s acknowledging the fact that the Internet and digital technology makes it easy to copy things, and giving it away for free means pirates can&#039;t really sell it.  It frees the song and that trust gets rewarded, though how much I&#039;m not sure, and how well it works long term has yet to be determined.

With web-fiction, most of us are offering our stories for free.  Donations are welcome, and appreciated.  Some authors have memorabilia for sale, like shirts or cups or what have you.  Others have Lulu editions so people can buy a print copy as an artifact of their experience online, or just because they prefer paper to digital.  

But in the end, it&#039;s free material -- it would be easy to pirate and plagiarize, but what would be the point?  It&#039;s already free.  I don&#039;t see it being a big problem for web fiction.

Historically, no one &quot;owned&quot; songs or stories -- traveling troubadours and minstrels and acting groups learned from each other, passed stories on by word of mouth, and elaborated, adding their own touches.  Shakespeare borrowed from history and Italian plays, Mallory got his Mort d&#039;Arthur from old legends.  I think the internet is encouraging a similar dynamic, where creativity flourishes with a new view of &quot;ownership&quot; that is fluid.

What it means, what it will look like long term, requires more thought, but I don&#039;t think the old ways of traditional publishing and piracy really apply at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, so piracy is reality.  Some bands are dealing with it creatively &#8212; offering songs for free, and asking fans to donate what they think it&#8217;s worth.  I respect that, because it&#8217;s acknowledging the fact that the Internet and digital technology makes it easy to copy things, and giving it away for free means pirates can&#8217;t really sell it.  It frees the song and that trust gets rewarded, though how much I&#8217;m not sure, and how well it works long term has yet to be determined.</p>
<p>With web-fiction, most of us are offering our stories for free.  Donations are welcome, and appreciated.  Some authors have memorabilia for sale, like shirts or cups or what have you.  Others have Lulu editions so people can buy a print copy as an artifact of their experience online, or just because they prefer paper to digital.  </p>
<p>But in the end, it&#8217;s free material &#8212; it would be easy to pirate and plagiarize, but what would be the point?  It&#8217;s already free.  I don&#8217;t see it being a big problem for web fiction.</p>
<p>Historically, no one &#8220;owned&#8221; songs or stories &#8212; traveling troubadours and minstrels and acting groups learned from each other, passed stories on by word of mouth, and elaborated, adding their own touches.  Shakespeare borrowed from history and Italian plays, Mallory got his Mort d&#8217;Arthur from old legends.  I think the internet is encouraging a similar dynamic, where creativity flourishes with a new view of &#8220;ownership&#8221; that is fluid.</p>
<p>What it means, what it will look like long term, requires more thought, but I don&#8217;t think the old ways of traditional publishing and piracy really apply at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Eli James</title>
		<link>http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy/comment-page-1#comment-3327</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 14:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.novelr.com/?p=610#comment-3327</guid>
		<description>Will be waiting, Gav. =)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will be waiting, Gav. =)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Gavin</title>
		<link>http://www.novelr.com/2009/05/19/how-to-deal-with-piracy/comment-page-1#comment-3326</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 13:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.novelr.com/?p=610#comment-3326</guid>
		<description>I think this is a really interesting article, and it&#039;s got me thinking.  I will be back later with a more involved response regarding web-fiction, when I&#039;ve let your words percolate in my head about.  Later, Eli. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is a really interesting article, and it&#8217;s got me thinking.  I will be back later with a more involved response regarding web-fiction, when I&#8217;ve let your words percolate in my head about.  Later, Eli. :)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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